NGC 7640 - as perceived by AI

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November 3rd, 2024, 10:41 PM
Dragan

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NGC 7640 - as perceived by AI

NGC 7640
UGC 12554

Galaxy

Constellation: Andromeda

RA: 23 22 6.7
DEC: +40 50 43

Class: SB(s)c
Mag: 11.3
Size: 11.6’ x 1.9’

(Disclaimer: As some members may know, I am very active in the realm of cybersecurity as my business partner and I help companies secure their proprietary and customer data. One tool we use regularly is AI. I was curious about how would AI go about writing an OOTW. So, for this week and this week only, I wanted to have a little fun and change things up. This OOTW was written completely by ChatGPT 4.0. I did not edit a word of its response. Please provide your observational notes as usual, but also, a little feedback about how well (or poor) you feel AI wrote this week’s post. I’m very curious. Thanks and clear skies! -Dragan)

NGC 7640, a striking barred spiral galaxy, was first documented by astronomer William Herschel on October 17, 1786. Located in the constellation Andromeda, this galaxy sits approximately 34 million light-years away (NASA Extragalactic Database). With its elongated shape and subtle structure, it’s often considered one of the more interesting edge-on galaxies in the northern sky, though it’s lesser-known than its neighbor the Andromeda Galaxy (M31). Early observations classified it as a peculiar galaxy due to its irregular features, but later studies revealed a more complex structure influenced by gravitational interactions (de Vaucouleurs & de Vaucouleurs, 1964).

Over the years, NGC 7640 has contributed to our understanding of galactic morphology and the effects of tidal interactions. Studies suggest that NGC 7640 may have experienced gravitational influences from nearby galaxies, distorting its spiral arms and creating regions of star formation within its structure. Observations of this galaxy have provided valuable insights into how interactions with other galaxies can shape a galaxy's appearance and behavior, supporting theories on galaxy evolution and the impact of minor mergers. NGC 7640 thus serves as a compelling example of how galaxies adapt and transform over time due to their environments (Gallagher et al., 1984).

Observers using telescopes of varying apertures will experience different views of NGC 7640 under moderately dark skies. Through a 10-inch telescope, NGC 7640 appears as a faint, elongated glow, with a central bulge that’s barely detectable. With a 15-inch scope, the galaxy’s structure becomes more apparent, showing hints of its bar and elongated arms. The brighter core is easier to identify, and a subtle granularity hints at star-forming regions within. Through a 25-inch telescope, NGC 7640 reveals even more detail; its irregular arms and faint bar stand out, and seasoned observers may catch glimpses of faint mottling along the disk, which hints at the galaxy’s complex, disturbed morphology.

In summary, NGC 7640 is a captivating object for amateur astronomers, especially those interested in galaxies with unique morphologies. Although it lacks the fame of larger, brighter galaxies, it provides a rewarding challenge for observers and a useful case study in galactic evolution and morphology. Whether viewed through a smaller telescope or studied with a larger aperture, NGC 7640’s elongated shape and intriguing features make it a memorable target (Sky & Telescope).

As always, “Give it a go and let us know!”

Attachment 5575
©Wolf Creek Observatory
November 4th, 2024, 12:11 PM
lamperti

NGC 7640 as perceived by A.L. with a 13" at 70x back in 1991: "Mottled glow amongst faint stars. Elongated. Hard to see where it ends." The mottledness is due to the AI's description of star forming regions.
November 4th, 2024, 01:21 PM
wvreeven

I remember this galaxy as being somewhat disappointing in my 6" Newtonian telescope because I always hoped to see more of it than an oval glow. With my 20" from Southern France 8 years ago I logged:

At 320x large, elongated, a bright central region, no stellar nucleus, the central part along the major axis is curved with the north part curving east and the south part curving west, the southern part is difficult to see, the northern part has stars superimposed and a few knots in the galaxy. Very impressive!
November 4th, 2024, 07:13 PM
Raul Leon

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Hi, here's my observation from 11/8/2009: ngc 7640 is a galaxy in Andromeda : mag: 11.3 ; size: 8.1' x 1.7' ; elongated and rather faint ,brighter central area and mottled edges. I used a 10mm Radian at 198x with my 14.5 StarStructure f/4.3Attachment 5576
November 6th, 2024, 01:57 AM
Steve Gottlieb

With my 24-inch...

At 200x; bright, nearly edge-on 4:1 N-S, ~6.5'x1.5'. Very asymmetric appearance with a brighter, elongated core, ~1.0'x0.5', which is oddly angled NNW-SSE to the major axis. A mag 14 star is just off the SE side of the core. The galaxy dims more noticeably on the south side, but is brighter along the western half [DSS shows this is a long spiral arm]. A mag 11 star is just west of the northern end of the galaxy [3.1' NNW of center] and two mag 15.5 stars at the north tip are collinear with the mag 11 star. The northern half of the galaxy is also asymmetric with a slightly brighter strip (arm) extending N-S and a very low surface brightness (outer arm) near the mag 11 star. Additional mag 11 stars bracket the galaxy just west of the S end and 1.8' NE of center.

At 375x; an extremely compact HII knot (less than 10" in diameter) was glimpsed just 25" SW of a mag 12.8 star [measured 3.7' SSE of center].
November 8th, 2024, 08:35 PM
Uwe Glahn

1 Attachment(s)

I recorded several observations.
Smallest one was with a 99mm spotting scope. While I missed the galaxy under soso conditions, NGC 7640 was clearly visible under good transparency as a ghostly 3:1 glow with many stars around and gave a wonderful view.
The 27" scope under High Alpine skies shows much more detail, beginning with the tight spiral arms to some HII regions.

sketch: 27", 293x-419x, NELM 7m0+, Seeing IV
Attachment 5580
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December 8th, 2024, 09:53 AM
akarsh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragan

(Disclaimer: As some members may know, I am very active in the realm of cybersecurity as my business partner and I help companies secure their proprietary and customer data. One tool we use regularly is AI. I was curious about how would AI go about writing an OOTW. So, for this week and this week only, I wanted to have a little fun and change things up. This OOTW was written completely by ChatGPT 4.0. I did not edit a word of its response. Please provide your observational notes as usual, but also, a little feedback about how well (or poor) you feel AI wrote this week’s post. I’m very curious. Thanks and clear skies! -Dragan)

Having worked on AI / ML models in my career (although in computer vision, not natural language), my understanding of them is that they mostly produce reasonable samples drawn from a statistical distribution (although LLMs have apparently shown some very interesting behavior of being able to "follow instructions" that breaks this paradigm). This means that many of the details are going to be completely wrong, yet sound plausible. So I decided to fact-check ChatGPT to see how well or poorly it performed.

BTW, when ChatGPT was new, I tried to have it write a OOTW article for me. It happily claimed that the Seagull Nebula was discovered by Antoine Darquier. That was ChatGPT-3, ChatGPT-4o is supposed to be way better.

Quote:

NGC 7640, a striking barred spiral galaxy, was first documented by astronomer William Herschel on October 17, 1786.

It did get the morphology (barred spiral), the discoverer (William Herschel) correct, but the date incorrect. According to Courtney Seligman, it was discovered on October 6, 1784.

Quote:

Located in the constellation Andromeda, this galaxy sits approximately 34 million light-years away (NASA Extragalactic Database).

It did get the constellation correct, but the distance is plausibly incorrect, although in the right ballpark. The distance estimates in NED vary wildly, although both the mean and the median are around 8.0 Mpc which is 26 Mly, not 34. With a standard deviation of about 2 Mpc or 6.5 Mly, 34 is outside 1-sigma.

Quote:

With its elongated shape and subtle structure, it’s often considered one of the more interesting edge-on galaxies in the northern sky, though it’s lesser-known than its neighbor the Andromeda Galaxy (M31). Early observations classified it as a peculiar galaxy due to its irregular features, but later studies revealed a more complex structure influenced by gravitational interactions (de Vaucouleurs & de Vaucouleurs, 1964).

I would not describe NGC 7640 as an edge-on although I could accept that description,it seems to be highly inclined. However, no sensible astronomer would describe NGC 7640 as a neighbor of M 31. It is 15° apart in angular distance and about 570 million ly apart in real space (if I calculated correctly). At least de Vaoucouleurs and de Vaucouleurs 1964 is a real reference (presumably the Reference Catalog) but I could not prove or disprove the veracity of the claim about its morphology (likely to be garbage).

Quote:

Over the years, NGC 7640 has contributed to our understanding of galactic morphology and the effects of tidal interactions. Studies suggest that NGC 7640 may have experienced gravitational influences from nearby galaxies, distorting its spiral arms and creating regions of star formation within its structure. Observations of this galaxy have provided valuable insights into how interactions with other galaxies can shape a galaxy's appearance and behavior, supporting theories on galaxy evolution and the impact of minor mergers. NGC 7640 thus serves as a compelling example of how galaxies adapt and transform over time due to their environments (Gallagher et al., 1984).

NGC 7640 does not seem to have any signs of major interactions, and the only nearby galaxy plotted is PGC 3088080 which corresponds to the dimmer of the "double star" on the south end of the galaxy. Gallagher et. al. 1984 is a real reference, and it is tangentially relevant (star forming rates in blue galaxies), but does not list NGC 7640 at least in the table (ugh, unsearchable PDF).

Quote:

Observers using telescopes of varying apertures will experience different views of NGC 7640 under moderately dark skies. Through a 10-inch telescope, NGC 7640 appears as a faint, elongated glow, with a central bulge that’s barely detectable. With a 15-inch scope, the galaxy’s structure becomes more apparent, showing hints of its bar and elongated arms. The brighter core is easier to identify, and a subtle granularity hints at star-forming regions within. Through a 25-inch telescope, NGC 7640 reveals even more detail; its irregular arms and faint bar stand out, and seasoned observers may catch glimpses of faint mottling along the disk, which hints at the galaxy’s complex, disturbed morphology.

Seems reasonable, although somewhat vacuous.

Quote:

In summary, NGC 7640 is a captivating object for amateur astronomers, especially those interested in galaxies with unique morphologies. Although it lacks the fame of larger, brighter galaxies, it provides a rewarding challenge for observers and a useful case study in galactic evolution and morphology. Whether viewed through a smaller telescope or studied with a larger aperture, NGC 7640’s elongated shape and intriguing features make it a memorable target (Sky & Telescope).

Haha, a reference to Sky & Telescope! I wonder which issue or what article, if at all, contains a description of this galaxy.

I've heavily used ChatGPT-4o to write code for me and it usually does a good job. It's way faster than trying to search StackOverflow or read documentation for syntax. About 30% of the time perhaps, there is one small mistake somewhere that's easy to spot and fix. Perhaps 3% of the time, it may leave out the most important part of the code or make an egregious error. I'd say the performance on writing code is in general much better than what it did with this OOTW.

In 2019 I attended the NeurIPS conference (an international conference of AI researchers) as a general corporate attendee, and the keynote was by famous AI researcher Yoshua Bengio. He analogized our progress in AI with Daniel Kahneman's best-seller "Thinking, Fast and Slow" where Kahneman illustrates a simplified model of our brains which contain two systems -- Associative memory or "System 1" as Kahneman describes is fast but subject to mistakes. Logical reasoning or "System 2" is slow, accurate and "takes work". An example he gives is driving – as we drive around, we're able to carry out conversations and such because most of the processing is done by "System 1", but every time we need to make a left-turn (in right-handed countries), suddenly we need to focus. That's "System 2" taking over. I can't find the YouTube video, but he also had a nice talk illustrating blatantly the failings of "System 1" (an example is optical illusions). In any case, Yoshua Bengio's punchline was that all the AI we've built today is more like replicating "System 1". I thought that talk was very interesting, and even in a fast-paced field like AI, seems very relevant today. I think great progress will come if we understand how to verify and iterate on the claims of AI models, i.e. have a "System 2" computer program somehow validate and police the "System 1" AI. I think Google used this approach when they solved math olympiad problems with AI – by using AI to produce statements in formal logic that could later be verified.
December 8th, 2024, 09:59 AM
akarsh

Now my observations of NGC 7640:

October 5th 2021 (Okie-Tex Star Party), 395×, 18" f/4.5: "Nice, elongated, mottled LSB galaxy with a brighter core. Hints of a curved southern arm flash occasionally."