"Rie" Catalog?

[KidOrion]

I'm currently compiling the open cluster section of a pretty huge database that contains every object in the Interstellarum atlas and cross lists it with all of the major paper atlases and references currently in use by amateurs, as well as trying to keep relevant data updated for each object. One of my present issues is dealing with some of the less-known catalogs and their abbreviations; the abbreviations list in ISDA isn't always helpful.

One such issue is the abbreviation Rie, which involves three or four obscure open clusters that are indicated for larger scopes. I've been all over the web looking for the catalog that Rie might reference and have struck out; it doesn't stand for Reiland, which is represented by one object and listed separately (and in any case, the spelling is different). Even Archinal & Hynes doesn't seem to help. Does anyone with a better grasp of the professional materials know what catalogue Rie might represent?

[lamperti]

I e-mailed Brent Archinal and here is his reply:

"As to a "Rie" catalog, I have not heard that name before associated with star clusters. I don't have any reference to it in my files, a simple web search doesn't show anything related, and the IAU nomenclature dictionary (http://cds.u-strasbg.fr/cgi-bin/Dic-Simbad) doesn't list anything.

I'm guessing then these might be amateur discoveries or at least something not covered yet in a professional paper, or otherwise it would have made it into the dictionary. I could only suggest that the poster follow up through whatever source or sources he heard about these objects (e.g. he apparently is saying it's in the Interstellarum Atlas) to see if the original data providers have more information.

I also don't know anything about the readership on the Deep Sky Forum, but other lists like amastro and apparently cloudy nights seem to have a large number of users, so posting this question on those forums might be another way to get more information.

- Brent

[Clear Skies]

Do you have more info on the objects designated "Rie"? Preferably celestial coordinates and size.

[KidOrion]

Thanks for the responses, guys.

Al--going to the big man himself! I'll try e-mailing Stoyan (ISDA author) to see what he can tell me about these clusters; if that doesn't work, then I'll give CloudyNights and the Yahoo groups a shot.

Victor--I don't have the data I need regarding RA/Dec and size, but I can give you this much:

Rie 4 is in Cassiopeia near Stock 2; approximate coordinates are 20h 07m, +60˚ 15'
Rie 11 is in Monoceros near 19 Mon; approximate coordinates are 07h 01m, -03˚ 50'
Rie 14 is in Musca near the dark nebula Sandqvist 130; approximate coordinates are 11h 35m, -64˚ 50'

So there are at least 14 objects in the catalog. 4 and 11 are indicated (in iSDA's "visibility coding") to be targets for scopes larger than 12", while 14 is indicated to be visible in an 8". All are quite small, but actual sizes are tough to measure on the atlas.

[wvreeven]

You may wanna try the Deep Sky Hunters mailinglist as well. Pehaps these are asterisms discovered by amateurs hunting undiscovered objects on POSS plates and other survey images.

[Mark McCarthy]

Kid,

Interstellarum lists two sources for their OC in their introduction,

Dias, W.S. etc. New Catalog of Optically Visible Open Clusters and Candidates (2012)
Kronberger, M, etc. Galactic Open Cluster Candidates, 2006

While searching this second title I found this article https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/pdf/2006/09/aa4057-05.pdf

It lists several OCs by David Riddle -- which might be shortened to "Rie" -- including Riddle #4. There is a Rie 4 plotted in Interstellarum (along with a Rie 11 & 14). I don't have my atlas with me to check the coordinates, but if Rie #4 is plotted in Interstellarum at the coordinates given in the paper: 02 07 22.7 +60 15 25 -- then Rie = Riddle

As noted in the paper Riddle posted his finds on DeepSky Hunters Yahoo Group.

Edit: Just saw your post, did you have a typo for your coordinates for Rie 4? Cassiopeia is 23h - 3h RA? -- so the paper coordinates look like a match for Riddle = Rie?

[lamperti]

" but if Rie #4 is plotted in Interstellarum at the coordinates given in the paper: 02 07 22.7 +60 15 25 -- then Rie = Riddle"
Those are the correct coordinates in Interstellarum. Mystery might be solved!
Al

[KidOrion]

Kid,

Interstellarum lists two sources for their OC in their introduction,

Dias, W.S. etc. New Catalog of Optically Visible Open Clusters and Candidates (2012)
Kronberger, M, etc. Galactic Open Cluster Candidates, 2006

While searching this second title I found this article https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/pdf/2006/09/aa4057-05.pdf

It lists several OCs by David Riddle -- which might be shortened to "Rie" -- including Riddle #4. There is a Rie 4 plotted in Interstellarum (along with a Rie 11 & 14). I don't have my atlas with me to check the coordinates, but if Rie #4 is plotted in Interstellarum at the coordinates given in the paper: 02 07 22.7 +60 15 25 -- then Rie = Riddle

As noted in the paper Riddle posted his finds on DeepSky Hunters Yahoo Group.

Edit: Just saw your post, did you have a typo for your coordinates for Rie 4? Cassiopeia is 23h - 3h RA? -- so the paper coordinates look like a match for Riddle = Rie?

Mark--you're absolutely right; that was a typo (and should've read "02h" as opposed to "20h".)

I think Al is right--mystery may be solved!

Thanks for the detective work!

Edit: What's ironic is that I have that paper already on my computer--it was very helpful with the Kronberger and Teutsch clusters as well--but I dismissed the Riddle IDs for some reason. D'oh!

[Mark McCarthy]

Hi Kid,

I was browsing Kent Wallace's Visual Observations of Planetary Nebulae today when I noticed in the Names List (where he decodes many discoverer designations) that Riddle = Ri. In fact Wallace describes his negative observation of Ri 1, a PN, in his book. (Ri 1 is not plotted in Interstellarum, I checked.)

So I went back to the IAU nomenclature dictionary website to search Ri, and find indeed they are using Ri for Riddle. http://cds.u-strasbg.fr/cgi-bin/Dic-Simbad?/12279462 They even reference one of the papers Interstellarum uses as a source for OCs.

It would seem Interstellarum is using an incorrect designator for Riddle objects, or some other error has crept in somehow?

[KidOrion]

Hi Kid,

I was browsing Kent Wallace's Visual Observations of Planetary Nebulae today when I noticed in the Names List (where he decodes many discoverer designations) that Riddle = Ri. In fact Wallace describes his negative observation of Ri 1, a PN, in his book. (Ri 1 is not plotted in Interstellarum, I checked.)

So I went back to the IAU nomenclature dictionary website to search Ri, and find indeed they are using Ri for Riddle. http://cds.u-strasbg.fr/cgi-bin/Dic-Simbad?/12279462 They even reference one of the papers Interstellarum uses as a source for OCs.

It would seem Interstellarum is using an incorrect designator for Riddle objects, or some other error has crept in somehow?

Mark--it does indeed seem that they're using a different designator, although why I'm not sure. I wondered if there was a conflict with a similar designator for a different type of object, but that doesn't seem to be the case. (I also wonder if it hs something to do with the reason this one wasn't included in the list of abbreviations.) I did go through and check the coordinates of Riddle 4, 11, and 14 to be sure that those were the clusters plotted in iSDA, and they're certainly the right ones.

So far in my database, I've done open and globular clusters. The open clusters have been a real mess of cross- and mis-identifications and conflicting identities. Between Archinal & Hynes and SIMBAD, I think I've got most of these figured out, but it certainly has been a challenge. I expect the galaxies and (especially) the various types of nebulae will be equally difficult.

Why am I doing this, again? :)

[Clear Skies]

So far in my database, I've done open and globular clusters. The open clusters have been a real mess of cross- and mis-identifications and conflicting identities.
Take a look at my observing guides: www.clearskies.eu/csog/download (http://www.clearskies.eu/csog/download)
I did most if not all of that work already.

[KidOrion]

Take a look at my observing guides: www.clearskies.eu/csog/download (http://www.clearskies.eu/csog/download)
I did most if not all of that work already.

And I downloaded them a while back and never thought to look there. :rolleyes: Lesson learned....